The Prediction of Violence with Dr. Michael Howell

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Announcement 0:01

Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice, and encouragement they need to lead courageously.

Travis Yates 0:12

Welcome back to the show. I'm so honored you decided to spend a few minutes with us here today. And thank you to all of our sponsors. To sponsor today's show is Telegenics. It's wellness for men and women. You can see that link in the show notes. But this is a I don't know, I'll call him an oldie but goodie, but with no offense, because he's been on the show before. We've been trying to get him back, but he's been deep into a lot of really cool stuff, and I'm looking forward to talking to him. But I'm also honored to have a new name for him today. I'm not just going to call him uh Michael Howe or uh Captain Michael Howe. Now I'm going to call him Dr. Michael Howe. I guess I don't have to ask what you've been up to, Mike. How are you? Oh, just got back from Liberty.

Michael Howell 1:00

Uh, I tell you what, the in-person graduation is phenomenal.

Travis Yates 1:06

So you have been getting your PhD through Liberty University. Uh, you obviously just came back from a ceremony. It's uh we're filming this, you know, post-graduations of 2026. And so uh you've had free time to be here on the show. But I guess the first question is because we're gonna get a bunch of stuff of what you did your research on because I think it's very important, Mike, is how was that process? And and because there's a lot of people ask those questions, getting your degree, and and obviously uh how was that for you?

The PhD Marathon And Research Gap

Michael Howell 1:37

It was a marathon. You know, getting a PhD or any doctoral degree is not something that you can expect to finish in a year. It the research alone for my dissertation took about two years. And writing it and while simultaneously well, actually three years. Um it took me three years to do the research and and write the dissertation and get it approved. Because with a doctoral uh program, especially a PhD, you're you're you're conducting research, you're looking for the gap in the research that has been done in the past, but that gap is what's what's missing. So as I began to look at active killer or slash active shooter uh attacks in society, I found that the church was the least researched of all areas, and as such, I chose to conduct my research on the preparation, the training and preparations for an active killer attack against the church. How does a team prepare and respond to defeat the attack?

Travis Yates 2:55

So so, and just to back up, I want to make sure the audience is aware. So you took uh years of coursework, and then at the end of that coursework, you have to do a study that is unique to research. So it's supposed to be sort of you know a very unique research project dissertation, and you discovered kind of surprisingly that there's been very little, if any, actual research done on church attacks.

Michael Howell 3:26

Well, the the FBI through uh their annual reports that they do some, and um there are a number of uh authors who have or let me back up. There are a number of PhDs and or other interested parties, several attorneys uh that have chosen to research churches, but nobody is talking about training and preparation plans. Carl Wynn from uh Colorado was one of the first. And he published a book that's in my research as far as long as uh Dr. Greg Vecke, who was my reader, he published a book on fatal grievances and talks about how the pathway to violence and the routine activity routine activity theory intertwine with or with what explain how it how it explains a an active a person becomes an active killer and chooses to target churches specifically.

Travis Yates 4:42

This is going to really play into something I want to get to later in the podcast, and and people just now tuning in may be thinking, and where's this going? Well, I think this is gonna lead into something that's very interesting and very related to law enforcement and public safety. But before I take what you just said and lean into that, because when you talk about the lack of study, lack of research in active killers, we have a whole host of lack of research in law enforcement that I'd like to get to. Is this isn't just a way for you to get the PhD and a way to do an interesting study? I mean, I respect the fact that you mentioned these authors, but this is a next level when you actually do research that has to be peer-reviewed and approved by universities and entities and things like that. And so this is a monumental task that you've put on, and uh it's pretty incredible. But this is more than just the interest. You have been involved in some active shooting yourself, right?

Michael Howell 5:38

Uh yes, I've been involved in several uh author-involved shootings, one of which was off duty at a Costco in 2017. And that's what that's what fueled my uh curiosity, if you will, or desire to pursue the doctoral program to find out what causes a person to decide that the only way they can resolve their grievance is to attack and kill multiple people in a in a public place.

Costco Active Killer Response

Travis Yates 6:17

Yeah, and I'll link up uh we interviewed you about that incident, but just to give them a quick summary, Mike, uh you were there off duty. I think you were buying a barbecue grill, something like that. No, an electric fireplace. Not close enough. And uh and you were fortunately carrying off duty and you were prepared when it happened. I'll let you have the floor and say what you want, or if you want to say anything at all, and we'll we'll go from there.

Michael Howell 6:40

Well, you know, I had made a promise to my wife when I pinned the badge on in 95 that I would never leave home unarmed, regardless of where I was going, as long as it was legal for me to carry. Obviously, federal property is off limits, but uh yeah, I mean, I almost didn't take it that day, but I heard that little voice in my head, you promised in 95, so I went back, got my pistol, hooked it on my waistband, and got with my friend, and we drove to we drove to Costco. You know, we confronting a an armed anybody in Johnson County, which was uh to the south of the county I worked in, uh was the farthest thing from my mind. I mean, I was situationally aware of everything going on. There was about 4,000 people in the store that day. And I had a uh I had a leg injury, I had a torn meniscus at the time, so I wasn't really wanting to lollygag. I wanted to get in, get out, and get home because I wanted to put some ice in my knee. And uh as we were pushing our way toward the front, that's when chaos began. Everybody started running past us, and I had to, you know, I stopped and pulled a guy into the into the aisle and identified myself as a police officer and asked him what was going on. And he explained there was a guy up front shooting people. Well, I had not heard any gunshots, but I knew that this was now a problem that needed to be taken care of. So I gave my keys to my friend and told him to get out, call 911, give a good description of who I was, where I was, and what I was wearing, and that I would, I was it, I was gonna take care of the problem. And Justin, I found out later his name was Justin, the manager was waving me off, telling me to get out of the way. I pulled my badge out, told him I was a police officer, and asked him what the problem was. And he pointed to in the direction of the suspect and told me what the guy was saying, and uh, which was that he claimed to be an off-duty U.S. marshal and then he was there to kill people. And all I could see was the long barrel. Well, that long barrel turned out to be a about a 12-inch revolver. It was a black powder 44-caliber uh pistol that he had on his in his right hand.

Travis Yates 9:05

Wait a minute, the guy brought a 12-inch revolver to Costco. Yeah, an old cowboy revolver.

Michael Howell 9:10

He had a he had a holster on his hip, the whole nine yards. It is Kansas City, you know. So he started, he grabbed a cart and was pushing it down the aisle, you know, repeatedly saying, I'm an off-duty U.S. Marshal, I'm here to kill people. Well, I our department trained us very well on uh how to respond to an active killer attack. So I just went to work and when I confronted him, he turned the pistol on me and wanted to fight, and so I ended the fight.

Travis Yates 9:45

Yeah, we we met, uh, and that's all over. I mean, you obviously you did some media interviews, and there's a bunch of stuff out there you guys are interested, and that's not the only encounter you've been involved in. Like we met shortly after that, uh uh, oddly enough, with our mutual friend Dave Grossman. And you were, and that's where we first met. I I don't know, I think we had talked before that, and we were we were planning to talk in person at Dave Grossman's seminar. And anyway, man, I've been I consider myself a lifelong friend with you. Uh we started our uh educational journey together of two doctorates, and I think in the same semester after that. It's been a real blessing to know you, and you are now on the research team with focus training, and that is really something that is uh that's kind of surprised me. And I know people that listen to the podcast routinely have heard me discuss this already, but I think it's very important to know just the the impact that that is that can make or is making, and then some of somewhat the resistance that we are getting.

Real-Time Pre-Attack Indicators

Travis Yates 10:53

And in our training, Mike, as you know, we have a bunch of individuals that you probably ran across in your research. One is Dr. Malloy uh with Trap 18. And um did you ever run across him when you were studying active active killers?

Michael Howell 11:09

Uh the name sounds familiar.

Travis Yates 11:11

Yeah, well, that's one of the one of the things that bothered me was is I found a lot of research on the profile, behavior profile of violence, but it wasn't in real time. Like you're at Costco, and there it is. You see the behaviors. I mean, it wasn't hard for you to see shooting a gun or pointing a gun and saying things, but there was no research on real-time violence assessment. Like we, we uh Malloy is sort of the king at this, and there's a few others that we've done all this research on okay, what's the profile of someone that may be an active shooter over the course of the previous 18 months of their life? Right? Uh, they've broken up with girlfriends, or they've got problems at home, or they've they stopped eating. Well, no, but that's not what is going to save the lives of law enforcement officers. What is happening right now at this moment that potentially could be violence? And it is shocking to me that we found no research in law enforcement. But as you know, Mike, we found a ton of research in corrections and hospitals and clinicians and EMTs, every other profession, they've done this research and they they've got they've got this system in place. And so what we've been putting together with the help of you, Dr. Howe, is obviously the first system that will protect the lives of officers by looking at what how you can predict violence in a on a real-time basis. Now, let's give the floor to you because you've you've done so much research uh on the churches. Just how important is that for the profession?

Michael Howell 12:44

It's extremely important because one of the one of the uh the theoretical framework that I used in my research was the routine activity theory. And the routine activity theory, if you will, is if you can picture a three-legged stool. And the three legs consist of a lack of a capable guardian, a suitable target, or a motivated offender. If you can provide a capable guardian, whether it be a friend, a pastor, a teacher, a parent, an employee, a supervisor, they can step into that individual's life at any moment in the in their along their pathway to violence, they can interrupt that uh planned attack. A suitable target. If if if you know, just like just like officers throughout our careers have used SEPTED to uh help businesses and communities, uh community groups understand how to harden the target, if you can make the target unsuitable or uh unavailable to achieve a success in an attack, the crime won't occur. If you if you can remove the motivation of the offender to act out their grievance or act out their anger against this perceived uh wrong, if you will, regardless of what it is, if you can stop one stop that, then you've prevented the attack from happening. Uh but the problem is not everybody understands what those three legs mean.

Travis Yates 14:37

Yeah, that's part of the issue is we've let a lot of people that have never done the job, never been a practitioner, define law enforcement operations. And uh whoever thought that de-escalation meant that you could force somebody to not commit violence, you know, is criminally insane because we have not found in our research one example of somebody that displayed pre-attack indicators where any type of verbal de-escalation worked. Now, de-escalation in the sense of what you just talked about, interjecting before the violence, interrupting that OODA loop, so to speak. That's what we're trying to discuss here because if when you see a pre-attack indicator, and we won't get into the details of what we found in the research, Mike, but obviously go to focuscertified.com if people are interested. But when you see a pre-attack indicator, it's not gonna be able to stop that for the most part. Like the reason they're giving off a pre-attack indicator is because they've already made up their mind to do it. And the and the physiological part of the body is displaying those behaviors. So to reverse that, you're not gonna be able to just hope and pray that they'll stop. You'll have to actually intervene or interject, right? We're talking about positions of discomfort or handcuffs or distance, or you know, you're gonna have to actually take action. And so it I'm interested in your research, Mike. Uh sorry, Dr. Howe. I'm interested in your research. How does that relate to the the active shooters? Like, did they was their mind made up when they showed up that day, typically, did you see?

How Attackers Plan For Months

Michael Howell 16:15

Well, let's let's use Columbine for example. That to me was the benchmark uh or the baseline for what we're experiencing today. Now, granted, August 3rd, 1966 was the attack at the University of Texas in Austin. You know, Charles Whitman, former Marine Sniper, uh knew there was a problem. He had a big anger, anger management issue. Uh grew up in a broken home. You know, mom and dad were constantly at at each at each other's throats. Uh dad spent money like crazy, never let mom have much, and then they divorced. Well, then they moved to uh Whitman and his mother and sister moved to uh Austin, and but Whitman knew something was wrong, and so in his uh diary, if you will, he uh he left instructions with you know asking for his brain to be autopsy because he knew there was something wrong. We'll come to find out he had a walnut-sized cancerous tumor that was putting pressure on his hypothalamus, and uh that was in turn creating the anger episodes. But that one that was a pivotal one in that that was the first one that was really televised. America was glued to their TV sets in 1966 when that happened. And thankfully, the law enforcement officers of the police department there were able to neutralize him. And was he the one up on a was he the one up on a high on the tower? High tower, okay. The clock tower there at the University of Texas in Austin.

Travis Yates 18:02

Yeah, as everybody knows that is uh that's bad news if somebody has high ground on you.

Michael Howell 18:07

But again, there are a lot of parallels between that and Columbine. Whitman planned this well for for many, many months. He rehearsed it. He you know, he he he knew exactly what he wanted to do and how he wanted to do it. And he fed that that that monster that was raging inside of him until eventually he snapped. You know, he he killed his wife the night before, and he killed his mother because he didn't want them to deal with the aftermath of what he was about to do. So he had already committed two murders when he entered the when he entered the uh tower. Then he committed his third murder when he got to the top and and took out the secretary that was there checking people in as they went out when the uh what's the next level.

Travis Yates 18:56

When we when we go back on it, seems like all these killers, Mike, we always say things like, yeah, he was different, or she was, or you know, I almost said she, it's almost always he. But yeah, I mean, there's people that said we saw the signs before. It's almost nobody saw this with Whitman. I know, but in general, in general, everyone usually talks about their characteristics or behaviors, right? Right. What is that? Are we are we just too timid to this cancel culture society, which I think ended when Kid Rock shot a bunch of Bud Light up, but are we just too timid to discuss it or bring it out? Or I think people are afraid of being sued.

Speaker 2 19:41

Yeah.

Michael Howell 19:42

Uh because there were students that were with the uh two attackers from Columbine for over a year as they practiced shooting in the woods, making their bombs, their IEDs. Uh, because this was not the Columbine was not an active shooter attack originally. It was designed to be a mass casualty event in the sense that they took they prepared uh propane tanks with ball bearings and and uh all kinds of other metal strapped to the outside of them, and they put these in backpacks and placed them at the base of the towers inside the cafeteria, hoping to bring down the upper floor, which was the library, which was full of students. And because their whole intent here with Columbine was they wanted to exceed the death toll from the Oklahoma City bombing from Timothy McVeigh. When that failed, then they went out to their vehicles, got their shotguns and pistols, and started shooting their way back into the school.

Travis Yates 20:41

How much do you think, Mike, uh pharmaceutical uh industry? I'm not blaming them for shootings, but the medicines that all are these kids on. Have there been any studies on the type of I I think I probably know the answer to this. Have there been any studies on type of medicines, uh, anti-anxiety? Because everybody, everybody listening this watches these commercials of these, and every at the end of these commercials, they always say, hey, if you take his drug, you may have violent tendencies or suicidal thoughts, but a whole bunch of I'm like, what is going on here? Is there any studies on there?

Michael Howell 21:14

I I don't think there have been, and that's the problem. Imagine that. Adderable that well, the thing, think about it though, you're gonna have to have someone with some pharmaceutical knowledge or medical knowledge.

Travis Yates 21:28

And you have okay, and you have HIPAA protecting all these people too, right? We always throw out HIPAA because law enforcement deals with this, right? Like we always are like, these hospitals know all this stuff, but oh, it's HIPAA, oh, it's HIPAA. Well, hey, bro, if someone has got violent tendencies and taking certain pharmaceutical drugs, we kind of need to know that, right? Yep, I agree. I mean Yeah, I think you don't know the answer because the research isn't out there, and you're gonna you always lean on research, Mike. That's why I love you so much. But I think I know the answer. That there is no research. And here's how I'm going to bridge that. It's it's the reason why I think that uh this focus is so important. Why was there no research? We've been teaching pre-attack indicators for 50 years in this profession, probably beyond that. And cops have been dying for 50 years and beyond that. And no one in their right mind decided to go, hey, let's go do the research on the behaviors that are preceding this violence. No, no one did. And I'm like, what does that matter all mean? I think I know the answer as to why. I think there may be an alternative narrative that they're trying to push on this profession that this other research would get in the way of. And of course, that's why. And like I said, people listening to this podcast know this in the last 10 years, officer assaults have increased 80%, and no one's talking about it, Mike. And uh, and so research in general is just that. It's just research, it should be ever evolving. But this is worth the very precipice of this research. You're at the very precipice of this research with active shooters. I think there's a huge, I think, once again, I think the fact that there was very little research with active shooters in churches tells you why, tells you a story. Like no one decided to do this until you came along, Dr. Howe. I mean, you're smart. You and I both put together aren't brilliant, right? So, I mean, I'm very surprised that all of a sudden this is discovered. So, what did you discover in your research involving churches?

Church Violence Patterns And Prevention

Michael Howell 23:25

Well, I mean, take it back a second. You know, there's there is a lot of research on the attacks against churches. Uh there are a number of authors that are compiling the stats on uh well, you know, we've had a lot of churches attacked. I mean, in my research alone, I had uh I had to stop at 2018. You know, that was my cutoff date. So, you know, when the when I started the program. From Columbine to 2018, there were 39 church attacks. Not all guns. It's not a it's not an active shooter problem, it's an active, it's a mind and heart problem. Uh most more often than not, according to uh Peterson and Dinsley, the domestic violence bleed over into churches because churches are a a uh community resource for you know divorced parents doing a link up or a counseling session for what have you to drop off the kids, do a parental, do a child exchange, and then well, if if if I can't have them, you can't either, and then there we go. And now we have not only the children and the and the uh the the other spouse losing their life, but even pastors and case work or other other employees at the church losing their lives because of this attack. Uh I I don't know. That that that was the primary reason why I decided to focus on active killer violence against the church, because if it's not the church providing help to the community, then who is? You know, Ronald Reagan pulled the federal funding for all the mental health hospitals nationwide, promising the money to go to the states, and it never happened. You know, before I left the department, well, before I got promoted to captain of the department, I was a crisis intervention team or a CIT uh trainer as well as a team member uh with our department. And I I worked countless cases of people that we call consumers because they're consuming resources from the department and from the community to help navigate through this trauma in their life, whether it be drugs or substance abuse or uh job loss or separation or injury. Uh, you know, and that that was that was a challenge, and it continues to be a challenge, you know, because society thinks, well, we don't need we don't need police officers, we don't, we don't need guns there. We need people, we need mental health help. Well, you and I know the last thing you need to do is send a mental health professional, left or right wing, to a call by themselves.

Travis Yates 26:15

That's where we've gone wrong with the de-escalation. And of course, yeah, if you've been following what we've been talking about here and the articles we've been putting out at the courageous police leaders, go to travischates.org and go to articles, is not only is there no research on the effectiveness of de-escalation, it's the exact opposite. Agencies have adopted mandatory de-escalation, the use of forces increased and officer injuries have increased. And that's even true on the statewide level that have adopted some sort of legislation. And that's the problem, mandated. Because when I went through CIT training, Mike, I don't know, it was somewhere in the late 90s, I think. Uh, they would always say this is not for people displaying violent tendencies. This is for people having a mental health crisis. And then at some point around the President Obama 2000 and whatever task force that uh I forget the document, is the first time they put de-escalation not as a tool or a tactic or an option as a mandatory item that builds trust for law enforcement, which is weird. Like it's weird. It it's never because they wanted to de-escalate and so that then agencies went in and they adopted de-escalation, not just for people having mental health crises or people having a bad day. It's oh, it's for everybody. Well, no, it's not for people displaying violent tendencies, and that's why you've seen agencies adopted, the forces increase. And you go, well, how could that be, Travis? Well, it's because when someone is displaying violent tendencies and you sit there and go, Oh, we'll just give them time and do some active listening skills, that violence is going to emanate. And that's what we see throughout the research for law enforcement, and that's what you saw with your research as well, correct? Yes.

Speaker 2 27:52

Pretty amazing. Oh, go ahead.

Michael Howell 27:54

My uh my attacker had already been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. Uh if I can say that. Uh and when his mother died two weeks before the attack, that was the straw that broke the camel's back, if you will. That was his that was his grounding into some sense of normalcy. And once he lost her, he lost that uh support network, I guess, if you will. And uh, he went in the day before the attack. We uh you know, we went back and looked at the videos. He was casing the store the day before. He knew what he would he knew what he was going to do. I think it was a suicide by cop issue, but what day of the week was this? Uh this was the third, this was the Sunday after Black Friday.

Travis Yates 28:45

Oh, he knew it'd be a very busy day in the store.

Michael Howell 28:47

Yep. He chose he chose a weekend day where he knew it would be packed because everybody was there to, you know, either get foodstuffs for, you know, Thanksgiving was done. Well, now we gotta prepare for Christmas, you know, get the stuff for Christmas dinner and or do Christmas shopping or everything else. I mean, this this Costco is right next to the interstate, and I mean it it's always busy. I've never seen it what what what you would say average, you know, whether whether it's where you can get in and get out real quick. It's generally uh I I sometimes go there once a month to just to check in with people and and do some shopping. And uh it's a good 45 minutes if I just want to go in and go in there and get one item because it's so good.

Travis Yates 29:38

You're getting the hot dog for 99 cents.

Michael Howell 29:41

Well, if you go to the food court, I mean that's right there by the front door, but if I want to go in and get like uh you know some reds or some vegetables, or uh, you know, you have to walk in and walk back to the store to that part of the department, you're gonna be a minute.

Travis Yates 29:57

Yeah, yeah, no doubt. We we go far too often, and it's one of my favorite places. I always sort of think of you when I go in there. Man, the research is pretty phenomenal. As soon as uh you're able to share the link, we'll we'll put that here in the show notes. Uh, your dissertation on that. Uh, and I want to just reiterate for people the type of sacrifice it took for you to get a PhD in criminal justice, I believe, right, Mike is what you got it in. Yeah, criminal justice leadership. Listen, I you you had a much larger hurdle than myself. I got mine in strategic leadership. You you did some pretty extensive things beyond what I even did, and I didn't have a clue what this entailed. I know you and I talked in 2018 when we began these programs, and I don't think we sort of understood. I don't think either one of us did.

Michael Howell 30:46

Do what? I don't think either one of us knew what we were getting into.

Travis Yates 30:49

No, we didn't. And although I did know at the time that 50% of the people don't finish degrees, and I don't know what I thought about that, other than ah, that's not a you know, we're stubborn enough to say that. But but boy, I think we both came close because I think we both got very, very frustrated. But uh I can speak for myself. I'm not any smarter, but I'm sure I'm stubborn. I'm not gonna quit. And boy, I the I know the hurdles that you climb to get this, you should be proud. It should encourage our audience if they're interested in in education, that it's something that's worthy, it's a worthy calling. You are going to be contributing greatly to the research modalities that going forward, not only in churches that are that are greatly needed, but also for public safety and law enforcement. We can't thank you enough for

Medication Questions And Research Blind Spots

Travis Yates 31:36

that.

Michael Howell 31:36

Well, my I appreciate that. My my biggest question is at this point, what are we missing?

Speaker 2 31:45

We're missing a lot. I mean, we're we're missing a lot.

Michael Howell 31:48

We have we've got all kinds of, you know, Chris Gralneck, we've got all kinds of great friends uh that are in this industry trying to stop the next attack. But what are we missing? I mean, we have run, hide, fight. FBI put has been pushing that since day one. You know, if if you can run, if you can't, hide, and then if you have no other recourse, fight like you're the uh third monkey on the ark and it's starting to rain, you know? That mentality. Uh but what are what are we not seeing that's the missing link? I think you I think you might have touched on it briefly. I think Adderall is a big problem. Over medication of these kids is a is a I mean, I've seen this firsthand on the streets, and I'm sure you have too. And be you know, in your police career. These doctors are willing to over medicate these kids, not really realizing the potential damage that they're doing to these kids' brains.

Travis Yates 32:49

They realize it, right? They realize it because if they're but because they have to know the side effects, right? That's the side effects. I but I think they there's no accountability because I I talked about earlier. Well, doctors are protected by HIPAA, doctors are protected by liability insurance, and nobody's on nobody to this day has come back and said, What about this medication? Why are you on this medication? I just dealt this with my father, and I'll give you a quick story. My father for the last two years has been displaying imbalance issues, and he's never really been unhealthy in his life. He's about to be 80 years old, but he's very, very healthy, which shocks me quite honestly because he was a narcotics officer in the 80s with no PPE equipment. But I think instead of it killing him, it made him like Superman, you know, all the meth that he used to inhale going into those meth labs. But uh finally I said, he's been to all these doctors, and finally I said, show me your medication list. When he showed me these medications, Mike, five out of six medication side effects was in balance. And I thought to myself, these doctors didn't go to the medication list and look. Well, I think the answer is of course they did. But man, that's a cash cow, right? Like we put up, put these guys and gals that are on Medicare, and I I give these medications for life, and it's just monthly money, and that's a whole nother podcast on what's going on in the medical profession. I think the fact that you found no studies on the tide of medication and violence, that tells a lot, does it not? Exactly. Well, man, I can't thank you enough for being

Turning Training Into Peer-Reviewed Data

Travis Yates 34:26

here. And just so you know, I mentioned earlier Dr. Howe is on our research team at Focus. You can find that out at focuscertified.com. We'll put that in the link in the show notes. And what does that mean? That means not only is he helping us with the initial research, but when we go in and train these agencies, we have an option to implement a research project within the agencies that give a a that give them a real peer-reviewed research on their use of force and officer injury after the training to see if it works. And it's of course we have a we we know it works based on this initial research we've done, Mike. And that's important because law enforcement is very susceptible to, oh, this is evidence-based training. And well, that's been a rabbit hole. And then almost everything pushed down our throat has no evidence whatsoever. You know, prone position was bogus, dare was bogus, de-escalation was bogus. Well, this is not going to be. I think it's going to save lives. I know it's going to save lives. It already has, Mike, and you're a big component of that. I can't thank you enough. And uh, I can't thank you for being here today and for all the work you've done. I'll leave it up to you for the last word, but thank you.

Michael Howell 35:36

Well, that's I appreciate that. That's I'm looking forward to it because we don't know what we don't know. You know, so many, so many agencies. Uh, this is one of the reasons, one of the challenges I had in my research was not every attack that happens gets reported. I mean, you you've worked with smaller agencies in your state. Not everything gets reported to the FBI. Well, the FBI is supposed to be the the uh top shelf, if you will, repository of all crimes committed. Well, not all crimes committed get reported. And that's going to be one of the challenges in in, you know, we find an agency where we where we do this this training, you know, we need to come back a year or so later, or even six months after it's uh it's initiated, you know, following the training. How have things changed since you've received this training? Have you seen officer-involved shootings diminish or increase? What are the officer-involved injuries, or you know, or or you know, what what are all the parameters involved with this study? And it's gonna take some time, but I I think we're up to the challenge.

Closing And Lead Courageously

Travis Yates 36:50

Yeah, Dr. Michael Howe, thank you. Congratulations again. Very honored to call you Dr. Michael Howe. And if you've been listening, you've been watching, thank you for doing that. And just remember lead on and stay courageous.

Announcement 37:03

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