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Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice, and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
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Well, welcome back to the show, and we are so excited to have Randy Sutton on the show.
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He's former retired Las Vegas Metropolitan Lieutenant, as you know, the founder of The Wounded Blue.
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Got to check that organization out.
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But in the this week, he's been reporting live from Pima County, Arizona on the Nancy Guthrie kidnapping.
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You've probably seen him on Fox News.
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He's been doing the work there for them.
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We wanted to bring him on because Randy started off sort of talking about the investigation.
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And what he's been talking about lately is leadership.
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And of course, our podcast is about leadership.
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And I didn't want to put Randy in a bad spot, but since he's telling the world about the poor leadership that he's witnessing, I figured we'd bring him on the show to give you some details on that.
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Before we get going, Randy, kind of give us the breakdown of the climate there.
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Obviously, there's things that you're experiencing that our audience was probably curious about.
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This is a very timely topic.
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What are you seeing there on the ground?
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Yeah, I appreciate you having me on, Travis.
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You know, um, as a as a law enforcement professional, uh it pains me to publicly criticize another another law enforcement organization or or even a person, you know, um, especially when it comes down to leadership.
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You and I have had many conversations about the importance of leadership.
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And and I and what what I'm seeing here is is textbook, how leadership can affect a major investigation.
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So let's break it down a little bit because I've been doing a deep dive into this uh this agency and and the leadership uh under under the the sheriff here.
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Now, um let's talk about quick about you know what what's happened here.
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So um we're now at four or like day 14, I believe, of the kidnapping, the uh the the abduction of uh Nancy Guthrie.
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And this has captured the attention of the world.
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I mean, every media outlet that exists is here, basically, or has been here.
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Most most of have actually left now.
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Fox is one of the few that's still here covering it.
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Um, but the but the interest in this and and bringing the attention to um law enforcement and their efforts in bringing her home has really focused the world on policing.
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You know, everyone wants Nancy Guthrie home alive.
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As the days tick by, you and I have investigated enough uh serious crimes like this to know that each day that each day goes by where we don't find her diminishes her um you know her chances to come back.
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And that's heartbreaking to say, but it's it's reality.
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You know, we all pray for a miracle that that we find her or that the law enforcement finds her.
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But um let let's let's be real here.
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The the chances are diminishing as time goes by.
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So we have this one, this is one of the highest profile investigations, I think I've ever seen.
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So so yeah, we have we have uh Tucson is um is where we are, but the city of Tucson has its own police department, and they are a very active police department.
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They had about 50 murders last year.
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Now, why do I say that?
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Because they have a very experienced homicide bureau.
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Pima County, which surrounds Tucson and the unincorporated areas, they have a sheriff's department.
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And the the the uh sheriff here, Sheriff Nanos, um was recently elected, re-elected.
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He he he was sheriff here for four years, lost his election to another individual, and then the following election, he narrowly squeaked by with uh getting elected again.
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Now, since that time, it's been about a year, um, he has a reputation here within the police agency of uh well, let me just put it this way the the I I have yet to find somebody on the police department that thinks he's a great leader.
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Yeah, Randy, I first heard I first heard Betsy Smith say this.
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Of course, Betsy, a board member at the Wounded Blue, she's been out there with you.
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I first heard this comment.
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Now, I know about Pima County.
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Obviously, I've been in the area a lot like you.
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I knew the reputation of the overall leadership there.
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I did not know about this sheriff specifically, but obviously his leaders will reflect him oftentimes, unfortunately.
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It's not just him that is maybe a bad leader.
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But Betsy sort of talked about the intimidation that he kind of reigns over people and the fear that he puts in people.
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That's when I first heard it, and then I heard you follow up with it.
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I'll let you continue.
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So um vindictive leadership is something that I've experienced before.
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Every police officer I know that's got, you know, any more than five or six years on may have experienced a leader like that.
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You know, maybe a sergeant, you know, somebody who who lets his personal feelings interfere with with uh the way he does his leadership role.
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Um, when you have the the top of the food chain, the sheriff of the of the county, and and he uh and he adopts that type of of leadership, you have you have trauma within the agency.
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Um here here's here's an example.
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Now, I I I talked about the homicide bureau.
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They they last year they had about five murders.
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So they don't have a lot of of murders here, but they had a very experienced homicide that they several homicide detectives.
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Unfortunately, they're no longer working homicide, they're counting paperclips or something because they got on the wrong side of the sheriff and he just said, You're no longer a homicide detective.
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Now they have homicide detectives, one of one of which, it's my understanding, is never investigated a homicide.
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And and then we expect these guys to perform at the top levels.
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It's impossible.
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You're asking the impossible of people, you especially with homicide work.
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You know as well as.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And and so you you have you have inexperienced detectives who have now been given the most high-profile murder or you know, investigation, which um has to be, they're looking at it as a homicide.
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There's no doubt in my mind.
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Uh, you know, some people don't want to hear that, but that's the reality.
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They're looking at every possibility of this being a murder.
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Um, and then we expect them, they're gonna perform at the top level.
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So uh because of the sheriff's leadership or the the the lack of, we have we're we're seeing a deterioration of the ability for this unit to investigate.
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Now, let's look at some of the other aspects of this.
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Um when when this first began, this investigation first began, came in as a missing person.
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But when when the law enforcement got there, they found enough evidence there to determine this isn't just some uh an elderly woman walking away, right?
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She's 84 years old, she is, according to all reports, has uh, you know, is is very sharp mentally, has limitations physically, as 84-year-olds do, has to take medication.
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Well, they found blood evidence there um leading to the outside of the home.
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If you don't investigate this as a major crime, then there's something really wrong here.
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So at first, they called in the search and rescue to look for an elderly woman.
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And it's my from my sources, the the the sheriff was told this isn't a search and rescue, this is a this is a major investigation.
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And he basically told the search and rescue unit, you go out and you go you search.
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So how much time was lost there?
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Now, at the same time, knowing that there's that this was a probable abduction, which he said very very early on, they didn't call the FBI.
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Of all the people to call, when you have an abduction, a kidnapping, who do you call?
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Do you call the FBI?
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Yeah, and I was gonna say, I was gonna say that, Randy, sorry to cut you off, but the FBI resources on kidnappings far surpasses any local agency because they do that on such an international basis.
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Now, with that said, a local homicide, probably not the FBI strong suit, right?
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But you're right, kidnapping investigations is it.
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But that homicide component is why it's even more troubling if Pima County has no experience because of leadership.
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The FBI is probably not going to help a whole lot with that because they just don't investigate homicides on a daily basis.
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But you're right, not calling them in immediately on a kidnapping or abduction seems wild and crazy to me.
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Now, it's it's come out now over the time, over over time, that um that the Pima County um forensics folks are the ones that processed the scene.
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Of all forensics in this world, there's nobody better than the FBI.
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Yep.
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How much how much evidence was lost because of people trampling on the scene, because of of you know the search and rescue people there?
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The media right up at the front door?
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Well, the and then and then they release the scene.
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Yeah.
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Within like 20 c yeah, they're cleaning the pool and delivery people are coming up, and and you never get that scene back, Randy.
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You can never get that back.
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Within like something like 24 hours, they released the scene.
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And I when I when I heard the the the sheriff give his first press conference, and then the second one where he said they they released the scene, and he and he rationalized it in some in some way, I that that that made no sense at all.
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I was thinking we got a problem here.
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So now let's go back to the to the first press conference the sheriff did.
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You and I have seen a lot of press conferences by leadership.
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The the whole the eyes of the world are upon him uh in this in this uh for this investigation.
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And watching his antics and the the methodology of the way he communicated left me speechless.
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He was he he was wandering all over the place, he gave information that he later walked back.
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He he was tearful at one point, but he was it was just it was it was uh amateurish is one word I'll use, but uh uh it was it didn't make any sense.
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And then he gave another one where he walked back some of the comments from the first one, and it was it was a mess.
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It was a mess.
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And I was thinking this is this is the leader of this agency.
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At that point, I'm already doing research and I'm hearing from very reliable sources that that this guy has no respect from the people that you that work for him.
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If you can't, if the people that work for you don't respect you, don't respect your abilities, don't respect your leadership, that is a that is a problem for criminal investigations.
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And that's what we're seeing playing out here, Travis.
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You know, you're right, Randy.
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You can get away with poor leadership, cowardly leadership in times of peace.
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You won't internally, your people won't respect you, they won't be loyal to you, they won't trust you, everything breaks down internally.
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But the public as a whole doesn't necessarily see that because this is not just about Pima County.
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You and I, as you said, we've talked about this across the country, some of the problems with law enforcement leadership.
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But when it goes public, it comes out very quickly.
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You cannot get away with being a coward when it comes to leadership when the spotlight's on you, and that came out, as you said, very, very quickly.
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So let's so let's talk about morale for for a moment.
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Um, the men and women of Pima County Sheriff's Department are working their asses off, right?
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Um, they've been called in off of vacation, their days off have been canceled, they're working, you know, double shifts, they are they're they're being run ragged.
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And um their morale prior to this was in the toilet.
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Now we've got we've got you know these men and women who are who are um facing stress that are you know stressors that are beyond the norm.
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And um, you know, as you know, let's let's change my let me change my hat from a from being a commentator for a moment to going back to the wounded blue.
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And of course, the wounded blue, we help injured and disabled officers, and it and we deal with post-traumatic stress, you know, on a regular basis.
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Um I'm seeing it here.
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Yeah, I am seeing the the effects it is having on these men and women.
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And of course, we're a confidential organization, so I can't comment on individuals, but um, but we're we we've started working with some of these guys.
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And uh and I'm so I'm seeing it firsthand, Travis.
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And this is this is once again, this is this is a leadership issue.
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That's what I was going to say, Randy.
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It's not the long hours, it's not the canceled vacation, it's the leadership that puts the pressure and the stress on these men and women.
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Of course, we see this nationwide.
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Unfortunately, that's why the wounded blue exists.
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But you couple what they're dealing with from a national, international spotlight, the work hours and the morale, you're right.
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That PTSD and that stress is going to take its toll.
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So now we we're now we've had a situation.
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I've I've been here for you know uh over a week now.
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And there is enormous uh there is enormous uh stress on a normal level for law enforcement.
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Here it's exacerbated, and the pressure on the department is immense.
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So we saw a search warrant being served um about five days ago, and everybody was you know full of anticipation that this was gonna be something.
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Well, it turned out it was it was a dead end.
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Um, then last night, once again, we're we're we're set up in the parking lot of the Pima County Sheriffs, and we saw the SWAT team roll out again.
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We got information they were gonna, they were, they had some some uh major uh you know lead here, and they went to serve a search warrant.
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It was uh it was uh uh a big deal.
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The SWAT team you know did their thing, they were there for hours, and and and it looks like the FBI was was with them.
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Um they the WestBI has been so silent here.
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I've never I've never seen them like this.
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Although they actually did come out publicly and say that that the the sheriff was hampering their hampering the investment.
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They didn't say hampering, they said he was not cooperating as well as he should or something.
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I want to point that out to our audience.
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The FBI is only being silent because how it works is is they're sort of at the bessest of the local agency, right?
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It has to be a they have to be a welcoming environment.
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So it's no question that the sheriff has shut them down vocally and maybe even inside that work as well.
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So that's because that's not because of the FBI, that's because of the leadership there of that local agency.
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And but you know the frustration of the FBI if they come out publicly and say it.
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Yeah.
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So that for that forced that forced the sheriff to to communicate with the media.
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So uh this is important.
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So after the first two press conferences, he was just raped over the coals by many journalists and and yours truly included.
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And he just stopped talking to the media entirely.
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He just shut down, he's not he's just not communicating.
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And until yesterday, he started talking, but he he refused to do a press conference.
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He hasn't done a press conference in about a week.
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Yeah, and one of the most high-profile cases, you know, since John Bonet Ramsey almost 40 years ago.
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This is no question, the highest profile case in America since then, no press conference for one week from the leader.
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So what he did yesterday, he took a series of interviews.
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Like he's afraid to do this in a in a conference.
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So what he did was he chose Fox News, you come from one to two, hey, uh, you know, news nation, I'll I'll see you.
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So he did in he did one-on-one interviews, and I've been watching those interviews, and uh I mean, it's it's um it's really something to see, um, Travis, and and and it's um here's the thing, if you're if you're the public here in Tucson, this this happened just hours ago.
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Uh perfect illustration.
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I was I was finishing lunch in a in a local establishment, and these people kind of came up to me and they said, Hey, I saw you on Fox News talking about about the uh you know the the Guthrie case.
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And they unloaded on me on their dislike for the sheriff for the sheriff.
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I I I mean, they didn't no the only thing they knew about me was I was a retired Las Vegas police lieutenant and I was talking about the case.
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They live here and they've lived here for a long time.
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And and they they basically said, you know, that this guy, um, they don't know how he got elected.
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I it was I felt like I was a psychologist, and I was let I was letting them vent to vent to me to get it out of their systems, you know?
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And that and they're not the only ones.
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I mean, it's this is on the this is on the minds of everybody here in Tucson.
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So they don't if they have a lack of confidence, Travis, it's based on what they're seeing from their sheriff.
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And and if it it so it's all based on his performance.
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Yeah, and we could break that down.
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I'm not gonna keep too much longer, Randy.
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I want to first thank you for being willing to talk about the leadership from the sheriff, because you know, all these gurus are running around out there, the leadership gurus or police, no one ever calls it like it is, no one ever points the finger at the actual problem.
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And leadership is the problem.
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In fact, the reason you and I are so passionate about law enforcement leadership is if a mistaken leadership in this profession causes lives to be lost, or 100%, 100% investigations to be destroyed, it causes irreparable damage.
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If they catch somebody today and they put up a defense, what they did at that crime scene will hurt the prosecution, will hurt the Guthrie family, will hurt the outcome of that case.
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And so that's why it's so passionate.
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That's why I I saw Betsy doing it, then I saw you talking about it.
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I went, ooh, it must be bad if they're on Fox News talking about leadership, which thankfully you you you so graciously came on the show to talk to our audience because that's what we talk about all the time.
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But you won't find that, Randy.
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No one ever wants to touch this hot button, but if we don't touch this button, we don't actually fix anything.
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And you know, there's 18,000 different police agencies in this country, every single one of them has a chief or a sheriff or whatever the commissioner or whatever they call them.
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And so without their understanding of what the what the tenets of leadership should be, then the those communities um are you know facing um facing danger, facing their the officers are are uh are in jeopardy because of uh physical, emotional health uh issues.
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And and that's why you and I care so deeply about it.
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We understand that there is there are great leaders out there.
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Listen, you and I both know a bunch of them too, right?
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Right.
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I wish we could.
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could clone some of some of the people that we have met that are just exceptional.
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And and you know what it really comes down to, Travis, I fully believe this is caring.
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Caring about the people that that that you um that you serve and about the people who work with you and for you.
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If you care about them, your leadership role is gonna is going to uh enhance their lives.
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And and that that should be the that should be the goal of every police leader.
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Yeah it's so interesting you say that Randy because in our seminar we literally have an entire section built out on that because when we speak to policemen across the country no matter where they are small town big town no matter what rank the central theme is I just want to be cared for.
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That's the central theme we always hear that's what the research says it's it's not difficult to do and it's just mind-numbing that we have such a problem doing it.
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Randy Sutton founder of the Wounded Blue I can't thank you enough for being here how can people how can people find out about the wounded blue?
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How can they donate to that?
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Because it's a it's an incredible organization.
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It is an incredible organization and and we've helped more than 1700 law enforcement officers since uh since we opened the doors about seven years ago.
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We're literally saving lives saving careers saving marriages and uh and changing lives so go please go to the woundedblue.org the woundedblue.org see who we are see what we do give what you can we have our 9-11 campaign we're asking people to donate just $9.11 a month and uh you you can we can literally play a role in uh in changing the lives of law enforcement officers across this nation and Randy I'm so glad that that Fox has you on the ground there that that the few people that didn't know you definitely know you now uh you've been one of the biggest supporters for me through the decades you've been the biggest supporter for what we do in leadership through the decades and the courageous leadership program that we have and I just want to take this time to be a big supporter for you you are you are a shining example of what law enforcement should be you're representing the profession just in an incredible way and I often my wife will tell you I will often look at these pundits on TV and say some nasty words about them you know because they take their four years of law enforcement experience and try to tell me what to think.
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Man I'm so glad you're the one doing it uh you're doing an incredible job I appreciate what you do I know the Guthrie family appreciates it our prayers go out to them thanks for the job you're doing Randy now Travis you know you are uh you're you are a leader in thought when it comes down to the law enforcement community and uh that's why I've been such a big fan of yours for these years you are indomitable when it comes down to your passion for the for the profession.
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Well God bless you brother and we'll talk to you soon Randy everybody Randy Sutton check out the woodablue.org and of course you're seeing him on your TV screens right now and we pray for a great success there for him and the Guthrie family thank you for listening to courageous leadership with Travis Yates we invite you to join other courageous leaders at travisyates.org
