WEBVTT
00:00:01.679 --> 00:00:10.960
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yeats, where leaders find the insights, advice, and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:12.320
Welcome to the show.
00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:15.519
I'm so honored you decided to spend a few minutes with us here today.
00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:20.079
And we are honored today to have David Berez with us on the show.
00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:25.280
He spent 33 years as a first responder with over 20 of those in law enforcement.
00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:34.399
He's the founder and president of 6-4 consultants, which is focused on increasing the well-being of our nation's law enforcement officers, our veterans, and first responders.
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:41.039
He's an expert serving for various organizations, including the National Law Enforcement Memorial Fund and Citizens Behind the Badge.
00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:47.039
And he's the author of the excellent book, A Resilient Life, A Cop's Journey in Pursuit of Purpose.
00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:48.719
David, how are you doing, sir?
00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:51.759
I'm doing great, and thanks for having me on your program, Travis.
00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:53.280
I really appreciate your time.
00:00:53.600 --> 00:01:03.920
No, man, listen, uh, you you're someone that is always in the middle of some of the cutting edge stuff, and you're you're part of these organizations that are helping so much in law enforcement, and you had an incredible journey.
00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:09.120
I guess uh before starting out, I think we just want to get a foundation of I mean, 33 years as a first responder.
00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:12.400
I know a little over 20s in law enforcement, and you served in some other roles.
00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:15.439
Just kind of tell us about that journey and what got you interested in it.
00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:21.040
Uh, so I started out when I was 14 years old as a volunteer with the local rescue squad.
00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:26.079
And I did 10 years as a volunteer as an EMT from the ages of 14 to 24.
00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:38.079
And I'll tell you, as awesome as that experience was, you are not prepared at the age of 14, 15, 16 years old to see the worst of that life has to offer from the car crashes to the fires.
00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:41.120
And you can't really participate in much until you are 16.
00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:45.120
But yeah, I was able to do the training, be on the ambulances, see the things.
00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:52.079
Um, and man, that was a really young age to start absorbing all the things we see in the first responder field.
00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:56.480
Um, when I got to the age of 18, I was off to college.
00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:02.640
I did four years uh at Hofstreet University, and I was on the uh volunteer fire department out there where I went to school.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:07.680
And when I came back uh back home after graduation is when I got involved in police work.
00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:17.120
And that transition for me from EMS to law enforcement really happened at the New York City Medical Examiner's office, where I was not there as a patient.
00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:26.879
Um, I was there well and alive uh as uh an intern for one year doing um medical legal investigations, which was a really cool experience.
00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:35.520
And I saw like the intersection between what I lived through on the EMS side versus what the investigations on law enforcement could look like.
00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:38.159
And uh that was my transition into police work.
00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:44.080
And then at the age of 24, I went to the police academy and uh had an awesome career in law enforcement.
00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:51.360
Yeah, so you had this unique career where you sort of jump from one area to the other, and and I would assume that there's a significant difference in the culture.
00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:59.039
I mean, I guess speaking of that briefly as far as culture and leadership, jumping from I mean, uh EMS, fire, police, kind of talk about that.
00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:08.879
So there's uh obviously they all have their individual responsibilities, uh, which I think create some of the culture in law enforcement.
00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:12.719
You you really are the first responder of the first responders.
00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:20.000
And uh on the fire and EMS side, you're kind of the second responders of the first responders because law enforcement has to secure the scene before you get into it.
00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:22.400
Yeah, we we have a nice term for it, we call it staging, right?
00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:23.039
We're staging.
00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:23.919
Yeah, absolutely.
00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:24.639
Absolutely.
00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:29.439
And it's uh, you know, so yes, does that breed a little animosity between the uh services?
00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:31.199
It does, but it's all in good fun.
00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:46.479
Um but what I'll I'll I'll say is that on the law enforcement side, there is a lot more thinking and a lot more uh academic perspective on our job because the reality is we have to be able to justify everything we do in a court of law.
00:03:46.479 --> 00:04:00.639
So it's not just the hands-on pieces, there's a tactical and um academic response to everything that we do in law enforcement, where on the fire and EMS side, you're more just tackling a problem with a set of skills that you've you've learned.
00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:03.120
And I think to me that was kind of the biggest difference.
00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:05.759
There was also some cultural dynamic differences.
00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:26.399
I I think on the law enforcement side, there was definitely more of a brotherhood feeling um and a big brother, little brother relationships within the agency versus on the EMS and fire side, where it I never really felt that it felt family-like uh to some extent, but it never felt um just that you're depending on each other for each other's lives type feeling.
00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:28.480
Yeah, that certainly is unique.
00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:35.600
And and we hear a lot about this uh thin blue line and brotherhood and and and this and all these different things.
00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:47.439
But uh, you know, what we keep hearing from our audience and the experience that so many folks that follow us have is sometimes the people inside those walls, the people you work with, are some of the worst ones that the way they treat you.
00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:51.920
Yeah, and I I think that's gonna be within the agency itself.
00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:55.120
I think culturally as a whole, we still have that feeling.
00:04:55.120 --> 00:05:03.279
Uh, but within the agency, there's always so much competition for promotion, for the greater assignments, for for who's gonna lead, who's gonna you know come behind.
00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:06.160
And we are real as cops, we are really good leaders.
00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:08.240
We're not really good followers.
00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:18.879
And I think when you put all of these type A alpha dudes into uh one pot, essentially, it becomes uh a mixture for disaster.
00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:22.800
Now, that can, depending on the leadership of the agency, that can be a good thing.
00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:35.040
If that energy is uh channeled into a great way through great leadership and great um just building of your people and having an officer-centric agency, I think we can really do a good job with that.
00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:41.279
But when the leadership is not trained, uh it really breeds malcontent within the organization.
00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:50.399
I always said, at least in my agency, and I hate talking bad about the police, but um, I always was worried more about getting stabbed in the back inside of it than shot in the face outside of it.
00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:54.879
Um, and that's kind of you know what I think people talk about.
00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:58.800
But the reality is I think there is just there is a a sense of family.
00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:09.120
You know, if you're a cop on a side of the road on a major highway, on a toll road, and you're battling somebody in the shoulder, somebody's gonna stop and help you out, and it's gonna be another cop.
00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:13.199
And it it's it we truly do look out for each other.
00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:17.600
But again, sometimes and not always the best ways with inside their own agencies.
00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:22.240
Yeah, and I don't think you're picking on your agency by saying that we're more scared of inside the walls outside.
00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:26.079
I think that's probably almost every agency in doing.
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:33.600
We've been doing agency surveys for many, many years, and I have found a couple that are fairly incredible that that are sort of sort of far off and beyond from the most.
00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:36.160
But I think in general, that's a good general term.
00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:44.560
And and do you have any ideas on how we can because obviously that goes to stress and and and mental wellness and all the problems.
00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:55.199
I mean, most cops I know leaving the profession today, they may be leaving because they got fully funded on their pension or whatever, but at the end of the day, they're kind of leaving because of what's going on between the walls.
00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:56.160
I agree.
00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:57.839
So, what's your thoughts on that?
00:06:58.079 --> 00:06:58.879
Yeah, I agree.
00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:08.639
I I we have a dearth of good leadership within law enforcement, and that's not to say that our individuals can't be good leaders, because I think we all are leaders every shift that we work.
00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:23.199
Um, I I think where we struggle is we separate from the military, the military promotes people based on what they've done and the work that they've done and their and their uh credentials, their credibility, uh, the effort they put in.
00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:27.519
On the law enforcement side, we promote people who took the test the best.
00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.000
And I think that's our real challenge.
00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:37.279
And we put then put the people that got the promotion into a leadership class to hopefully make them a good leader.
00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:38.560
It doesn't work that way.
00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:40.800
You either have that skill set or you don't.
00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:42.000
Can it be learned?
00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:42.800
Yes.
00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:47.600
But there has to be a good foundation, and we're not promoting the right people for sure.
00:07:47.600 --> 00:08:02.319
And we see it, especially at some big agencies, big city agencies, where these chiefs or or or directors or commissioners at the top, they're kaltowing to the politics of the moment and they're not leading by example and they're not looking out for their people.
00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:07.360
We're not people-centric within our law enforcement agencies.
00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:09.439
I think there's just a dearth of good leadership.
00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:10.639
Isn't that crazy?
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.879
Well, the way you just put it, I don't think I've ever thought of it this way.
00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:22.800
We promote somebody, then we send them to leadership curriculum type training after we promote them.
00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:24.319
Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:27.439
Because we promote by test taking in an interview.
00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:42.960
Versus the military and and the private industry that looks for leaders, promotes leaders, and then mentors those and then we wonder why platforms like this exist and why you why you're having to teach so much on mental wellness and resiliency.
00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:44.799
Man, it's pretty wild when you think about it.
00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:49.519
So, what got you interested in uh obviously you've got a great organization.
00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:51.120
There's six, four consultants.
00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:58.240
Uh, give the website with the answer, but I mean you're doing a lot of great stuff around the country, it revolves around resiliency and some other things I want to talk about.
00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:00.159
What got you interested in that?
00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:07.039
So when I retired January 1st of 2020, I retired into a really odd time.
00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:14.080
It was the beginning of COVID and you know, come June, we we had all the civil unrest following the uh Minneapolis incident.
00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:17.120
And I was sitting at home on the couch, losing my marbles.
00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:19.360
And I wanted to be part of the fight.
00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:20.159
I'm a fighter.
00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:24.240
I'm I'm a guy that just wants to be engaged with being a problem solver.
00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:32.480
And I was literally sitting on the couch, drinking my brains out because it was not a damn thing I could do to help anybody else that was struggling.
00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:46.399
And on July 29th of 2020, a very close friend of mine, Danny, had taken his own life as a result of everything that law enforcement was going through at the time and things that he also had going on in his personal life.
00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:51.679
He was still uh an active detective sergeant with a local department at that time, a city department.
00:09:51.679 --> 00:10:01.360
And he was like the eighth or ninth person in the course of, I don't know, maybe 10 or 12 months here in New Jersey that had died by suicide.
00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:03.440
And I was like, dang, what what's going on here?
00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:04.240
What's the problem?
00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:14.320
And I knew in my heart that I was struggling too, but I didn't realize where I was or how I was doing in the in the space of everybody else.
00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:23.519
So I was lucky enough to um be at the forefront of what we were doing here in New Jersey with the New Jersey Office of Resiliency for Law Enforcement.
00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:32.480
And I was put into a class called Master Resiliency Trainer Course, which was uh assisted by the FBI National Academy's folks.
00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:37.360
And it was a great opportunity to understand what resiliency looked like.
00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:39.200
And it was a three-day course.
00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:41.759
I got my certification in that, all well and good.
00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:52.559
But I then I started teaching some of this as an adjunct for the state and then uh for a private company, and I didn't understand what the science was behind what we were doing.
00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:57.039
And I was reading off slides, I was talking about emotion, using my own background and story.
00:10:57.039 --> 00:10:58.639
I'm like, but something doesn't feel right.
00:10:58.639 --> 00:10:59.679
This is inauthentic.
00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:00.720
I don't like it.
00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.200
So I had to figure out what that was about.
00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:07.039
So uh through that process, I had read uh Marty Seligman, Dr.
00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:09.600
Seligman's book, uh Flourish, which is a very popular one.
00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.000
I'm sure a lot of people have read it in this space.
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:16.960
And in that book, he talks about the Master of Applied Positive Psychology program at the University of Pennsylvania.
00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:18.559
So I was like, dang, I gotta do that.
00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.399
And my wife's a Penn grad from undergrad school, so I married up.
00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:28.399
Um and it was great to see, like, hey, maybe I can have this connection to her and go to this program.
00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:29.279
We can both be penned grad.
00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:29.840
Oh, this cool.
00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:33.360
I'm like, an Ivy Geek school, it's never gonna work.
00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:34.559
So I applied.
00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:39.120
I did not get in the first time, I did get in the second time, which was a blessing of its own.
00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:46.240
Um, and I graduated, and I'm the only police officer to who have ever gone through this positive psychology degree.
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:52.320
And um it's uh it's a true blessing to have been part of that experience for many reasons.
00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.279
And now Marty's a personal friend and a mentor of mine.
00:11:55.279 --> 00:12:13.360
And taking all of what I've learned in the science of well-being, which is what positive psychology is, and being able to bring that to the law enforcement space, we've been talking a lot about these concepts, and there's a lot of people that talk about this stuff, and like I'll even say, have you know, um vomit from a podium about these things sometimes.
00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:22.159
And uh but when you put the science behind it and understand why it works and what we're telling you to do, it really makes a big difference.
00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:30.799
And for me to have that level of authenticity of the scientific background of discussing these skill sets, these interventions, these tools really made a big difference for me.
00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:32.320
And that's why I ended up getting involved.
00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:34.960
I had to give back to the problem we were having.
00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:40.480
You know, we have over a hundred almost 200 people a year, 200 cops a year that kill themselves.
00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:46.240
And um it's four times the amount of people dying by a felonious attack in the line of duty.
00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:47.440
That's insane.
00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:48.639
That's insane.
00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:57.440
We can't be doing this, and we got to figure out what the problem is and how to solve it, and not just having diarrhea of our of our hearts at the podium, which are great.
00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:07.759
We should be telling those stories, but let's have people walk away with skill sets that they can use so they can do better for themselves and they can serve their communities with the best version of themselves.
00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:09.440
Well, you alluded to it.
00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:11.519
I think you said diarrhea of their heart.
00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:17.039
Uh, this uh whatever you want to call it, mental health, mental wellness, resiliency.
00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:20.480
Uh these trainings popped up overnight, right?
00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:23.600
It's just everywhere you look, somebody is a so-called expert in it.
00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:25.759
And that's why I think what you're doing is so different.
00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:27.279
I said it, you didn't have to say it.
00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:34.480
That's why I think what you're doing is so different, is you've actually studied this, and you obviously have your personal experience, but you've studied it, you have the science behind it.
00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:36.240
That's the difference, is it not?
00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:38.879
I I would agree with that statement.
00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:57.519
Um what I focus on is actually the science of storytelling, and I think storytelling is so important, and I'm so grateful for people being vulnerable enough to tell their stories in a public forum, at a podium, on podcasts, however, whatever platform they choose to do it from.
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:07.519
What I really struggle with with, and I've actually seen it happen, unfortunately, is people walk away from a conference only having heard how bad everybody else is doing.
00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:10.240
They go out into the parking lot and blow their brains out.
00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:12.720
Um, I watched it happen.
00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:14.639
And it broke my heart.
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:26.399
So for me, what I needed to do was be able to use my story as a foundation, but then be able to give people tools to walk away with so they can do better for themselves, their agency.
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:29.600
But honestly, the most important part is do better for their families.
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:38.559
Because if we're not giving people the skill sets to get healthy, telling the stories is just well, only benefiting the person at the podium.
00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:44.080
There, there's entire three-day conferences that will make you more depressed before you before you got there.
00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:45.360
I was just at one.
00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:46.720
It's nothing but that, yeah.
00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:47.840
I was just at one.
00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:56.639
And you know, the feedback I got from that conference was dang, you're the only one that gave us tools to walk out of the room with, and I appreciate you.
00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:57.679
To me, that was everything.
00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:01.120
Like I can die tomorrow happy because that comment was passed to me.
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.919
Well, we don't want you to die tomorrow, but we want you to be happy.
00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:09.600
So, so when you talk about tools, give us give us three things right now that our listeners should be looking at.
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:15.120
First off, from a proactive standpoint, and then even maybe unfortunately, sometimes a reactive standpoint.
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:20.320
So I I appreciate that you actually broke that apart because I think proactive is the most important part.
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:25.360
Um, we don't run a marathon on the first day of training, right?
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:29.200
We we need to train our brains in the same way we would train our bodies.
00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:33.360
So we got to do it when we're in good shape and we have to work ourselves up.
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:41.759
So when the moment happens where we have to put ourselves or our minds into action, we're already in a great place to be able to do that.
00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:44.639
So proactive training of our brains is really important.
00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:51.279
And one of the simplest, easiest things we can do, and I know this word is thrown around a lot, it's free, it's cheap, but gratitude.
00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:59.519
Be freaking grateful, not just for the things that people are doing for you, but feel gratitude for what you offer back to other people.
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:04.159
Gratitude is based in the idea in the science of meaning and mattering.
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:05.679
And there's two parts of that.
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:18.320
There's feeling valued, which is great, but adding value actually has been shown to be more effective in our overall well-being, in what uh Aristotle would have called our eudaimonia, our living the good life.
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:23.840
Uh, so we giving back to others is what makes us feel good more than when people do good things for us.
00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:29.840
So just be kind to others, but also feel gratitude when people are doing kind things to you.
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:32.879
And just it's free, it's simple, it's easy.
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:35.840
Well, yeah, we just our Thanksgiving episode was about that.
00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:42.480
Uh now I just we didn't have a guest, I just sort of ripped on for about 15 minutes and talked about it because it's something that I've had to sort of find.
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:46.639
Because if you want to feel sorry for yourself, you'll find a reason all day, every 100%.
00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:56.480
You have you have to look around even globally and go, hey, the fact that we get to sit here with technology and meet each other in the United States of America, I'm pretty grateful for that because I didn't choose that.
00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.200
I didn't choose where I was born, didn't choose my parents, didn't choose anything.
00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:03.279
And so it's really about having that holistic approach to things, if it's not it is.
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:04.640
I I completely agree.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:14.720
Um, and and as we also alluded to before, uh, storytelling I find to be a really good piece, which is going to be more on the reactive side because you have to have had a story to tell.
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:19.119
So it's uh a little bit harder than than gratitude as a proactive tool.
00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.519
Uh, but storytelling is is a great way.
00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:30.240
And when I do that lecture, when we have those workshops, what I really concentrate on is finding a 10-word, building a 10-word meaning statement, number one.
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:34.000
So you have a north star for what your life is about.
00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:41.680
And then building a story up with that north star, with that meaning statement as your focus and talking about you at your best.
00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:43.119
The story should be about you at your best.
00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:47.920
It shouldn't be, oh, when um I saw this, it made me feel X.
00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:49.200
No, no, no, no.
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:50.480
Yes, that sucks.
00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:51.039
It happened.
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:57.519
I'm sorry about that, but it doesn't do anything for you other than to, as we said before, vomit that at the podium.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:05.200
When you're telling a story about you at your best, you can reframe what you saw and it sucked, but how did it benefit you?
00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:08.400
So instead of looking at things, why did this happen to me?
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:16.319
Let's talk about things, why they happened for me, and use that to build your meaning story with your meaning statement as you're a North Star.
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:20.559
And then if words aren't your thing, and it's not for everybody, I'm a I'm a writer.
00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:21.279
I love writing.
00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.279
I know you're you're a writer as well.
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:31.200
And that's how I get my emotions, my feelings, and my thoughts to live somewhere other than the scrambledness in my head, and it helps me organize.
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:33.119
Some not everybody's a literary person.
00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:34.799
Some people are more visual.
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:42.240
And if you draw a picture of your story, take photographs of things and create a pictorial of a story.
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:43.440
There's different ways.
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.440
You can sculpt, you can do woodwork.
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:49.920
Anything creative allows you to tell a story through that art.
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:55.119
And those are the things that we talk about often in my storytelling workshops and lectures.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:19:01.200
That's a really good reactive way to things that have happened to you, reframing it as to what happened for you.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:05.759
Is that why the power of journaling, that's why is that why journaling is so important, David?
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:06.400
It is.
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:12.000
So journaling is actually grounded in the uh science of self-disclosure, which goes back over a hundred years.
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:23.920
Uh, you know, and if you're able to take the things that are living in your head and making you crazy, I'll I'll use that word, which is not a great word, but certainly not scientific.
00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:29.680
But uh, taking those thoughts and putting it on paper and organizing it in a way that makes sense to you.
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:40.960
What's so amazing about that journaling process is you can refer back to those thoughts at any given time and revisit them and understand them in a way that you can't when they're just stuck inside your head.
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:48.960
You can reframe them because they're there for you to look at and reflect upon rather than uh being an emotional response inside your brain.
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:58.000
So when it comes to resiliency, um, I think if I asked a hundred people what that was, I'd probably get a hundred different answers.
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:03.359
So, based on all your knowledge, what's uh What's a good working definition for that and what people should be looking at?
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:05.599
So I actually don't like the word resiliency.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:10.559
I think uh it doesn't really serve us in the way that it's clinically defined.
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:16.559
Um and I know positive psychology certainly has a uh resiliency as a scientific component to it.
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:35.039
I actually look looking at uh Nassim Taleb's anti-fragility because resiliency is coming back to zero, where anti-fragility is is that um response from zero, like building from coming back better than you were before the adversity took place.
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:42.799
And so to me, I actually uh try to refer less to resiliency anymore because it has become a buzzword.
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:45.519
It's a it's a it's a brand at this point.
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.480
And uh I think it's a bad brand right now, actually.
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:56.960
And we have to look at what do we do to build ourselves beyond resiliency and how do we come back better from adversity than before the adversity took place?
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:09.279
And that's truly the concept of anti-fragility and building ourselves up in a way where the the adversity can't break us, it changes us, but we can then come back better than before it took place in the first.
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:17.440
When it comes to leaders, uh one of the problems I have with what leaders are doing with this, all these topics right now is they're I call it checkbox training, right?
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:26.400
They just want to find some training or find some program endorsed by some four-letter word that's a cuss word, and they just say, We did this and we're good and we're we move on.
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:28.640
Uh, I'm sure you've seen the same thing.
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:38.079
If there was a if there's leaders listening to this that truly want to make a difference, not just say say they did something to satisfy some mandate, what's the first step they should do?
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:40.160
Number one, lead by example.
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:47.839
Random acts of kindness, being good to people, showing people how to live in a a pious way where you're not.
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:55.279
If you have a new kid coming into your squad, make sure he doesn't buy that $100,000 F-150 right out the gate with his first paycheck.
00:21:55.279 --> 00:22:01.920
Make sure that they're having financial resiliency in their lives, that they're setting money aside from their first paycheck.
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:03.119
Yes, they should enjoy themselves.
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:07.039
They're young, they should they should be out there, but they also need to be responsible.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:08.160
So lead by example.
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:12.400
That would be my first um suggestion for a leader.
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:34.319
And don't just because you're the sergeant or you're you're the lieutenant of your squad, uh, don't come to work in your $100,000 car that your wife helped you buy because what these young kids are looking up to you and they're trying to um follow in your footsteps because you've been successful, lead by example and be do it in a way that's kind of humbling.
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:43.039
And yeah, it's um show I would show these young kids how to be grateful for what they have and not yearn for the things they don't.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:54.000
And I think that'll also help them when they answer that first domestic violence call, that they've never even had a long-term boyfriend or girlfriend, so they don't even know what relationship building is all about.
00:22:54.000 --> 00:23:00.000
So, how do you go beyond just separating the two parties, finding out which one is responsible?
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.160
And then, you know, in Jersey we have a must-arrest.
00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:03.039
So you got to take that.
00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:08.400
Let's talk to people like humans and find out what's bothering them, what brought them to that place?
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:13.039
How can we be of service to them beyond what we're required to do as police officers?
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.319
And I think that's a great way to start is leading by example.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:32.400
You know, you you you talk about purpose a lot, you teach on purpose, and I think that's uh something really huge that happens to people that retire or leave this profession because we sort of do them a disservice by making by wrapping up this job as who they are.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:42.079
We start in the academy, we we separate them from Saudi with a uniform, we identify them, and we we tell we talk about us versus them, or even if we don't talk about it, it comes across in our actions.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:50.559
So you can see where if somebody spends 10, 20, 30, 35 years in that environment, they think their entire life, their entire purpose is that environment.
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:53.680
When they leave that environment, there's significant problems.
00:23:53.680 --> 00:24:02.240
I want you to talk about kind of what officers on the job need to be doing right now to make sure that they don't lose their purpose when they leave a job.
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:06.400
And then people that have already left the job that I mean, I'll just speak for myself.
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:15.200
It took me a couple years of fog to sort of figure out, oh, even though I teach this and this and that, this happened to me, I didn't even know it because I didn't even know I was being indoctrinated like that.
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.680
So kind of talk to that crowd as well.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:29.759
So I think uh understanding and finding out who you are is really important, and that goes back to that that 10-word meaning statement, uh, is identifying what your meaning and what your purpose is.
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:36.240
It you're and it's not being a police officer, it's not um, oh, I'm uh a SWAT guy.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:47.839
Like that's not your purpose, that's an avenue towards your purpose, but identifying what your purpose is, like mine is being an just authentic servant leader for other people.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:55.440
And I didn't need to wear what what I learned, because I took me some time just like you on the way out the door to figure it out.
00:24:55.440 --> 00:25:05.119
But what I've learned is I didn't need to wear a badge and a gun or a uniform or hang my blue line flag on the back of my car to understand that and or to be that servant leader.
00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:09.599
I can serve people in other ways through authenticity, through intention.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:11.519
And that's what works for me.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.480
Some people, their identity may be a beach bum.
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:24.160
You know, here in New Jersey, we have a lot of guys that live along the ocean, and uh when they're off duty, they're off duty and they're with their boat and their family and they're fishing.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:25.359
Like, that's awesome.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:33.279
So, what I would suggest to folks that are on the job or potentially transitioning out, uh make sure you have friends that are not cops.
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:38.160
Because when you walk out the door on your last day, you are not coming back.
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:43.200
You are not part of the team anymore, you are not part of the inner circle, you are gonna be on the outside looking out.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:55.920
And no matter who you were, I don't care if you were the social leader, if you were the chief, I don't care what your position was within the agency, either professionally or socially, you are on the outside looking in now.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:58.559
And you are not part of the team.
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.799
You're not even gonna be part of a retirement team.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:02.400
Most agencies don't even have a retirement team.
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:08.480
Now, if you go like NYPD, New Jersey State Police, Chicago PD, there are retirement organizations with those larger departments.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:13.759
But you know, the vast majority of the country has their departments are 25 cops or less.
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:15.920
So you are on the outside.
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:25.200
Make sure your friends are not all cops because you you there's nothing to talk about on the outside when when work doesn't isn't there anymore.
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:30.160
If your friends are all cops, have experiences that are outside the agency, outside policing.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:31.039
It's so important.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:32.720
And for your family as well.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:37.680
You're not going to be talking about cop shit with your family once you've left the job.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:40.640
It's just it's a non-factor anymore, it's not work anymore.
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:46.880
So find ways to experience life with your family, with friends, that is not police related.
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:50.960
And before we go, David, I need to ask you about this term because I saw it on your website.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.799
You teach about it, but it obviously piqued my interest because we talk about courageous leadership here.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.359
But you talk about a term called courageous optimism.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:58.960
Talk to us about that.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:04.559
So courageous optimism was born out of a pretty simple question that I didn't know how to answer.
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:06.799
And when I was in graduate school at Penn, Dr.
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:08.559
Marty Seligman has said to me, What?
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:12.000
And this was right after a critical incident that was in the news.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:20.559
And he said to me in class, what allows a cop to go into the proverbial gunfire when everybody else is running away?
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:26.720
And interestingly, it wasn't proverbial at the time, it would there was an actual critical incident that we were talking about in our class.
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.839
And I was like, I don't know, they're just trained to do it.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.839
And I was coming up with all of these like random things.
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:34.000
He goes, No, what's the academic theory?
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:38.960
If anybody knows Marty Seligman, everything with him is academics and in a great way.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:44.559
He's one of the most brilliant researchers and brilliant psychologists who have ever walked this earth.
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:49.440
Um, but he was looking for an academic theory, and I had nothing, literally had nothing for him.
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:56.000
And uh he's like, Well, it's not an official assignment, but I need you to figure it out, and I don't care how long it takes, go figure it out.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:06.400
So, with plugging in all my ideas on paper and then putting them into um an AI platform, I'm like, what does this all mean?
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:18.720
And after months of researching different pieces of this, um, I came out to courageous optimism was what allows cops to run into the gunfire when everybody else is running away.
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:19.920
So then what did I have to do?
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:24.640
I had to take those two words, courageous optimism, and rebuild that into a theory.
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:37.440
And so where that and where I landed with that was the combination of self-determination, self-efficacy, and courage is what allows cops to do their job.
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:52.720
And self-determination, meaning um the want and the will to do something, self-efficacy, having the skills and the right tools to be able to do it, and then courage, being able to act in spite of whatever fear may come across because of the circumstances you're in.
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:54.960
And that's courageous optimism in a nutshell.
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:59.119
Uh, and I think it can be used both for recruitment, retention, promotion.
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:08.880
If we have people that lead with courage, courageous optimism, uh, I think we'll be in a much better place, kind of taking this full circle to the where we started the conversation.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:16.160
And I think that that is what allows cops to do and be the best version of themselves.
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:17.519
It's fascinating, man.
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:18.079
Fascinating.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:19.440
How can people reach out to you, David?
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:25.759
And I know after listeners are going to want to talk to you, and and obviously they get your book on all major platforms, but how they can how can they reach you?
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:31.759
So the best way to get to me is uh probably through email, which is David at sixforconsultants.com.
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:34.720
Uh also I'm on LinkedIn, a pretty prolific on on LinkedIn.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:42.160
I do write a lot of articles uh through positive psych uh through psych psychology today, the publication there, so you can find my work there.
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:53.599
Um but yeah, it's uh if you go to my website, um, which is www.sixforconsultants.com, you can get to get to me through either LinkedIn or through I even think my phone number is up there.
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:57.359
And I what I ask is if you ever have a problem, you want to reach out, I'm always happy to help you.
00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:58.559
I'll always answer the phone.
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:01.519
Just don't call me when you're drunk because I won't come and get you.
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:05.440
So you you're you're really involved reading into this, but before you go, I want you to talk about it.
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:09.119
So you're involved in the National Law Enforcement Memorial Fund, you're involved with citizens behind the badge.
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:11.039
How did that involvement happen?
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:18.319
Uh National Law Enforcement Memorial Fund, uh, I started back in 2013 as my first year at the Police Unity Tour.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:23.839
So the Police Unity Tour is a nationwide bicycle ride that started uh in New Jersey back in 1996.
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:30.640
It's 300 miles from New Jersey to Washington, D.C., the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial to kick off Police Week.
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:38.799
Uh the money raised for through that organization all goes to the maintenance of the wall, the memorial in Washington, D.C., and into the museum.
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:42.079
So that's what was my indoctrination into the memorial fund.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:58.640
Since then, uh I've become an ambassador for the memorial fund, which has allowed me to do a lot more work with them and even help create last year's uh officers as artists exhibit, which was part of my uh thesis work from uh University of Pennsylvania to help to build help build that exhibit.
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:01.279
So that's been uh a really exciting adventure.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:13.200
And Citizens Behind the Badge was started by Craig Floyd, and Craig is the CEO Emeritus of the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, and once he retired, he started a second organization called Citizens Behind the Badge.
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:21.119
And it's an advocacy organization that was looking at the defund and defay movement uh starting back at the COVID days and all the civil unrest.
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:37.519
And it's kind of transitioned into just being really good stewards of policing to help change the narrative in the public space and identify problems, uh, offer solutions, and just make sure that police are being seen for the good work that they're doing.
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:40.559
And I'm an advisor, advisor for that organization as well.
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:42.480
Yeah, I've known Craig for many, many years.
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:43.519
You're in good company there.
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:45.519
So, David Berez, thank you so much.
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:47.039
Yeah, thank you so much for being here.
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:48.400
I can't thank you enough.
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:49.359
Appreciate it.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:53.119
And uh I love the work that you're doing as well, and I hope our paths continue to cross.
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:54.079
They certainly will.
00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:56.559
If you've been watching or you've been listening, thank you for doing that.
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:59.759
And just remember, lead on and stay courageous.
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:04.559
Thank you for listening to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates.
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:09.759
We invite you to join other courageous leaders at TravisYates.org.
