April 5, 2026
2000 Years of Cowardice with Dr. Greg Amunsdon
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Send us Fan Mail Pilate has authority, facts, and options, yet he still folds when the crowd gets loud, showing that leadership failure is often a failure of courage. Travis Yates and Dr. Greg Amundson connect that pattern to modern law enforcement leadership, resilience, faith, and the daily choice to lead by example. • Pontius Pilate as a leadership warning under pressure • cowardice reframed as “strategy” through compromise and stalling • courageous leadership as doing right d...
Pilate has authority, facts, and options, yet he still folds when the crowd gets loud, showing that leadership failure is often a failure of courage. Travis Yates and Dr. Greg Amundson connect that pattern to modern law enforcement leadership, resilience, faith, and the daily choice to lead by example.
• Pontius Pilate as a leadership warning under pressure
• cowardice reframed as “strategy” through compromise and stalling
• courageous leadership as doing right despite cost
• seasons of identity in law enforcement and walking through new doors
• prayer and Scripture as the starting point for purpose and mission
• self-help culture as distraction without fulfillment
• trust and surrender when control feels safer
• modeling the way through fitness and disciplined living
• resilience as an internal capacity, not just a program
• peer support and chaplaincy research, plus the value of real relationships
• Joshua 1:9 courage anchored in God’s presence
We invite you to join other courageous leaders at TravisYates.org.
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Chapters
00:00 - Pilate And The Failure Of Courage
04:15 - Compromise Is Cowardice In Disguise
06:26 - Why This Message Lands On Easter
07:20 - Dr. Greg Amundson Joins The Show
10:00 - Seasons, Calling, And Finding Mission
17:34 - Self-Help Culture Versus Scripture
22:58 - Trust When Control Feels Safer
28:50 - Fitness As Leadership By Example
32:23 - Resilience Beyond Apps And Programs
35:26 - Being A Person After God’s Heart
37:28 - Where To Find Greg
Transcript
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Pontius Pilate knew the truth.
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He said it out loud three times.
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Standing before a hostile crowd with the power of Rome behind him, the governor of Judea looked at Jesus of Nazareth and declared him innocent.
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Not once as a passing remark, but three separate times as a matter of official record.
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In Luke 23, 4 he told the chief priests and the crowd, I find no guilt in this man.
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When that did not satisfy them, he sent Jesus to Herod to get a second opinion and came back with the same verdict in verse 14.
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I did not find this man guilty of any of your charges against him, neither did Herod.
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When the crowd still would not relent, Pilate tried a third time in verse 22.
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I have found in him no guilt, deserning deserving death, I will therefore punish and release him.
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Three decorations, three opportunities to hold the line, and then after all of it, he folded anyway.
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Luke's phrase is the most damning description of failed leadership in all of Scripture.
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Their voices prevailed.
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Pilate did not run out of authority, he did not run out of facts, he did not run out of options, he ran out of his will, his will to do what is right.
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And when his will ran out, he freed a murderer and condemned an innocent man because the crowd demanded it.
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That's not a political miscalculation.
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This is cowardice.
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We saw it 2,000 years ago, and we continue to see it today.
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What Pilate did that morning was not a failure of information, it was not a failure of authority, it was a failure of courage.
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And 2,000 years later, the same failure is playing out in organizations, agencies, and institutions all over the world.
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The names may have changed, the stakes are much lower, but the pattern is identical.
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A leader knows what is right, the crowd pushes back, the leader folds.
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Pilot had every tool he needed to do the right thing.
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He had the legal authority, he had the political standing, he had the truth on his side.
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It was confirmed by two separate evaluations.
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What he lacked was the will to act on it when doing so came at a cost.
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The moment the crowd applied pressure, Pilot stopped leading and started managing the situation.
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He tried to split the difference.
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He tried to put feet in both sides.
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He offered to release the prisoner as a compromise.
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He stalled.
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He outsourced the decision to Harold, hoping someone else would solve the problems for him.
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He proposed a middle ground, flog the man and release him as if half concession would satisfy people who wanted blood.
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It did not.
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The voices grew louder.
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And then Pottett gave them what they wanted.
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Leaders today do the same thing under a different set of circumstances.
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I could go on and on of all the examples that we've discussed here many times.
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We may call it pragmatism.
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We may call it picking our battles.
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We may call it waiting for the right time.
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We may call it reading the room.
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But what it actually is is his cowardice.
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Coward is stressed in the language of strategy.
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See, Pilate's case is instructive because it removes every excuse.
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He was not uncertain about the facts.
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He was not confused about his authority.
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He did not lack any information or different options in the Gospel of Luke that makes that unmistakably clear by recording three separate declarations of innocence before the final decision.
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Pilate was simply afraid of what doing the right thing would cost him.
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The crowd was loud, the religious leaders were threatening, the political consequences of standing firm looked worse than the moral consequences of backing down, so he made the calculation that most cowardly leaders, and I would say most leaders, make he decided that his position was worth more than his integrity.
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That calculation always cost more than it says.
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Now, what would have courageous leadership looked like in that courtyard?
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It would have looked like Pilate saying that he already knew to be true about the first declaration and holding that regardless of what came next, it would have looked uncomfortable, the crowd would have not cheered, the religious leaders would have been furious, there may have been consequences, but the decision would have been right, and everyone present would have known it.
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That is what courage and leadership requires.
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Not the absence of pressure, but the decision to act rightly in the presence of it.
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The crowd will always have a preference.
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Political winds will always blow in some direction.
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There will always be a version of the easy path that lets the leader avoid short-term conflict at the cost of long-term credibility.
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Courageous leaders reject that path full stop.
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Not because they were unaware of the cost, because they understand what is at stake when they don't.
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Pilate's name has been repeated in churches around the world for 2,000 years.
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Not as a hero, not as a pragmatist who navigated a difficult situation, but as the man who condemned an innocent person.
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He condemned the savior of the world.
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He condemned the innocent land because he lacked the backbone to do otherwise.
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History does not remember what he preserved by making that choice.
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It remembers what he surrendered.
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The leaders in your organization are watching how you handle pressure.
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They're watching what happens when the crowd gets loud, when the political environment gets difficult, when the right call is also the hard one.
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When it matters most, will you hold the line?
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Pontius Pilate had the same question in front of him.
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He answered it three times before he got it wrong.
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His final answer is still being recited thousands of years later.
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Now I hope you're not listening to this on Easter Sunday, but if you are, I felt there's a reason for it.
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I hope you're spending time with family.
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Hope you're spending time in worship and service.
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And I appreciate you for doing so.
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But I felt led to give you this message, and I it was on the heels of a conversation I had with Dr.
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Greg Amundsen a couple of weeks ago.
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You may be familiar with Greg.
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He was at the forefront of the CrossFit movement a couple of decades ago when he was leading the law enforcement seminars.
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And at the time, I had a hand in developing CrossFit 1907.
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It was a CrossFit gym for our police department.
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And I had brought Greg in for a seminar.
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And we hooked back up about a year ago.
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He's teaching at Fletzi now.
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And I brought him on the podcast to talk all things leadership, as I usually do.
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But the conversation went a different direction.
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I think you're going to enjoy it.
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I certainly did.
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So without further ado, Dr.
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Greg Omenson.
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Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice, and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
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Welcome back to the show.
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I'm so honored you decided to spend a few minutes with us here today.
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And the day is going to be a banger, folks.
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We have Dr.
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Greg Almondson on the show.
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He's an ordained minister and a leader committed to proclaiming God's word with clarity and conviction.
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He holds dual master's degrees in ministry and leadership and biblical and theological studies from Western Theological Seminary, and he earned his Doctor of Ministry from Regent University, where he's research focused on resilient pathways for law enforcement.
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Greg is widely considered as one of the nation's leading authorities on resilience, leadership, pastoral counseling, and holistic wellness.
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Greg integrates theological insight and practical application to inspire transformation in both individuals and communities.
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In 2001, Greg became a founding athlete of the global CrossFit Movement, personally mentored by its founder, Coach Greg Glassman.
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That same year, he began advanced studies in Krav Magov, becoming one of the first American law enforcement officers trained in the discipline and the first American law enforcement officer certified to teach it to the profession.
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Greg serves in federal law enforcement at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.
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He's an adject, he's an adjunct assistant instruct.
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He's an adjunct assistant professor at Regent University, where he teaches courses in leadership, chaplaincy, and qualitative research methodology.
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And he's authored 10 books.
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And Greg, I could go on, but I'm not going to, man.
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Thanks for being here.
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How are you?
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I'm doing well.
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Thank you for having me on the show, my friend.
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Man, you know when I look at your your life and your career, Greg, and I'm not sure I've ever met someone.
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And we met years ago and we recently rekindled on a random beach somewhere.
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I don't even remember where I was, but I'll tell the quick story.
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My wife and I are on a beach.
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I was teaching at a conference, and I think you were teaching at the same conference.
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And you know, you're working out on the beach, doing some running, doing some things that I should have been doing.
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And you know, my wife's trying to, you know, make sure I didn't see her looking at this, you know, random guy that's running on the beach with a six-pack.
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And of course, I I know she's watching, and so I go, I'm gonna be the cool person here.
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So I go, hey Greg, how are you?
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And she looks at me like I was nuts, right?
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Because I looked up and saw that it was you, man.
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And we got to talk for a few minutes.
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It was great seeing you, and man, I've been following you for a while, but you're you you have just done, I mean, you've lived several lifetimes here, and so I'm gonna really enjoy getting into it.
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And I think before we do that, I'll just let you sort of walk our audience through your journey to where you are today.
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Well, thank you for the kind words and the gracious introduction.
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I really appreciate it.
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Well, brother, the challenge is like you said, there's been so many different doors that God has opened over the years.
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And with every door that's opened, I feel like He's ushered me into an entirely new season.
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So it's hard to reverse engineer or trace the steps that are.
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Well, and I I want I don't mean to interrupt you, but I think that's profound words because a season is a way to say, when I look at my life, I almost see three different lives, right?
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And you can see the break in the season.
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And I think so many in law enforcement struggle with that.
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They they they identify so strongly with the profession that when those seasons come and go, and oftentimes those seasons are closed doors, and maybe we don't want them closed, but then God opens up other doors, and I think people have fear to walk through it.
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I'm not saying you've never had fear, but man, you've walked through a handful of doors.
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I mean, your resume today looks nothing like it looked like when we first met, way back in the CrossFit days.
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And I'm just I'm just curious uh of sort of how you've successfully navigated that because I think so many in our audience struggle with that.
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Well, I would not be able to describe my life any open door, any success.
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I would not be able to describe my life apart from my relationship with Jesus.
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So as I press in, as I lean into him, things gain greater clarity.
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Now, conversely, to the extent in different seasons of my life that I have lacked that intimacy, I also lacked direction, I lacked purpose, I lacked a sense of mission in my life.
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But what's astonishing is that even during those times of my life when I was not walking as close to the Lord as I am now, God has been able to redeem all those seasons of my life.
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And there's a scripture that I think says this so well.
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God can work everything into a pattern for good for those who love him.
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So even in those times of my life when I was independent, doing my own thing, convinced I knew the way to go, once God redirected my path, he even worked out those what we could call mistakes in my life into the pattern that got me to where I am today.
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Yeah, man, I our our our paths are so different, but they're so similar in that way because I would be so stubborn uh fighting what I think God wanted me to do.
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Like he would slam a door shut where it would hurt, right?
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And and it would literally wake me up.
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And I'm with you.
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Those moments when I was in the word and I was more close to God, because it's just human nature, right?
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We call that sin where we get separated and we think we know better, me, myself, and I.
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And you look on social media, and that's literally all that you see these days.
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But I would encourage everybody out there, because you said a couple things that I think are so important purpose and mission.
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And people are asking themselves right now, listening, what is my purpose?
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What is my mission?
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And I think what you're saying, and what I will say is you won't know it until your faith meets God in the greatest leadership book that is known to man, which is called the Bible.
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Very true.
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You know, I've been reflecting a lot for people that might be new to scripture, they're wondering where to start.
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They're searching for purpose.
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There's an amazing message.
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I just spoke on it today.
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There's an amazing message in the first two chapters of the book of Nehemiah.
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Five efforts can summarize uh answers to a lot of the questions that I think our listeners might have.
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Nehemiah he uh starts with prayer or supplication, as it's referred to in scripture.
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He starts with prayer.
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That's the foundation for everything.
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So if we're searching for purpose apart from prayer, we'll never find it.
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So Nehemiah starts with uh prayer, and what he prays for is what uh you just spoke to.
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He's praying that God would give him mission.
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He wants to be sent on mission, he wants to have a purpose in life.
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So he prays, God answers his prayer, he sends him on mission.
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Then Nehemiah asks for other aspects to support the mission.
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He asks for a safe passage, he asks for supplies, he asks in a very bizarre way, he even asks for challenge.
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We encounter a character in that chapter named Sen Balat, who begins to oppose Nehemiah.
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So it's just a really encouraging book of the Bible, very practical wisdom, but I think it speaks directly to people who are searching for that mission and that purpose in life.
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Yeah, and what I have seen is when you search for that purpose and mission and you're in prayer, God, you don't always hear an audible voice, but God has given every single listener out there, every human being on the planet, certain talents and gifts.
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Right.
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And I found myself the happiest and them uh within my career, within my personal life, when I was using those gifts that God gave me and that and it in those certain roles, right?
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So I think when you talk about law enforcement, you talk a lot about empowerment.
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I think our leaders need to hone in on the people that work for them, what are the talents they have?
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Everybody has different talents, and if you can mold those talents into their job, you I mean, forget about uh, you know, people not being happy at work and low morale, you're gonna boost it immediately.
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Because I know in the, I don't know, I did 30 years in law enforcement, and I can think of about 10 years where I think I had leaders that put me in positions where I was able to use my talents.
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I felt like I was in the right place, I felt like I was within my purpose there at my job.
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And I think it's behoove all leaders to go, you know, know your people, care about your people, know what talents they have.
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It's because they're not just cops that they have innate talents within the profession, and you put them in those roles and then just sit back and enjoy the what comes, right?
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Well said, you're exactly right.
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So, you know, I'm we're already way off target because I had a script of what I was going to say.
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We're really way off target, and that's fine.
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I want you to sort of describe people that may be listening that aren't believers, may go, what is this?
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And they're talking about Jesus and they're talking about this and that.
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Well, listen, if you've been to a leadership seminar or you read a leadership book, you read portions of the Bible.
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You cannot get away from it.
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It's the greatest leadership manual known to man.
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Yeah, there's some crazy stories in there, and you get in the old testament, and I don't even know what some of that stuff means, and that's all normal.
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But when you when you break down a John Maxwell book or you break down a leadership seminar, I don't care where it's at, and I've been to all of them, unfortunately.
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There's some of them I'm not proud of.
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There are there are increments of the Bible in there.
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I mean, every single person listening in law enforcement has heard of this term servant leadership.
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Maybe they're not familiar, maybe they've not seen it, but they've heard it.
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Well, that comes straight from scripture.
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And so let's speak to that because I what I am so uh what it's so awesome to hear you talk about, Greg, is you don't separate it.
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Like there is no separation with you.
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I mean, when you speak about leadership right after that, you're speaking about biblical theology at the same time.
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:34.319
Just kind of talk to our audience about that.
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:34.880
Sure.
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:35.599
Thanks for asking.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:37.519
Well, I'll share something with you, my friend.
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:42.160
So, other other than my beautiful wife Jessica, you're the you're the first person I've shared this with.
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:43.839
So I'm working on a new book.
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:46.160
It's called Why We Pray.
00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:46.880
Yeah.
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:49.519
And you're more than working on it, Greg.
00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.839
That's a that's an initial version from Amazon they sent you over there to look at, right?
00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:56.079
Yeah, it's it's one of my proof copies.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:56.640
It's a good idea.
00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:57.440
I recognize it.
00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:58.160
Yeah.
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:05.759
So I mentioned that because in one of the chapters in the book, I talk about the self-help culture.
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:14.079
And what's astonishing is that every year the self-help culture increases by millions of dollars.
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:18.240
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:21.359
It seems like we're not getting better.
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:21.920
Right.
00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:24.160
The budget will be going down, not up.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:26.319
So it's like, what is going on?
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:31.359
And I've got so many colleagues in that space, and I love them dearly.
00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:32.880
I love what they're doing.
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:37.759
At the same time, the answer, as you said, is in the Bible.
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:41.359
And I have that book, you know, right here.
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:43.119
The answers are right here.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:53.839
And so it's unfortunate that uh we get sidetracked by the myth that we can have fulfillment apart from God.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:19:08.640
The myth that we can have purpose, that we can have mission, that we can have meaning, that we can have joy, love, everything that we're searching for, the myth or the lie or the sin, is that we can have all that apart from God, right?
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:10.559
Which is a lie because no, you can't.
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:15.599
Apart from God, that will distract you, but it won't fulfill you.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:26.000
So what we have to spend more time doing is reading scripture, praying, and trusting.
00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:27.839
Yeah.
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:28.400
Yeah.
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:34.880
And you just mentioned the most difficult thing, I think, not only in my life, but probably every Christian out there, which is trust, right?
00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:36.000
Which is trust.
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